Decision support + drug interaction

drbowen wrote on Tuesday, December 06, 2005:

Drug Drug interaction should be an automatic feature every time a new drug is added to the medication list. 

Names of the medications will need to be standardized (using a search function of the medication database) or at least the tool will need to ignore case for mataches. Also it will work best if the tool can recognize brandnames and associate them with generic names.

The easiest way to do this is list:

Toprol XL : metoprolol

Then search metoprolol for drug-drug interactions.

Drug Drug interaction lists tend to come based on generic names.

Adding a manuel button to initiate searches to check befor adding a drug to the list would be fairly easy.

Click a button in the problem list area labeled "drug-interaction"

A pop-up runs a dialog:

search the database for the name of the new drug

enter

business logic checks against the drug-drug database and issues a warning and how severe the interaction may be.

(A link to read about the interaction would be nice here.)

drbowen wrote on Tuesday, December 06, 2005:

Decision support will take more thought and effort.

I have approached this so far by designing forms that are driven by chief complaint.

I start with a chief complaint such as "bronchitis".

I then research a general way of taking care of “bronchitis”.  Currently I use “Saunder’s Manual of Medical Practice”.  This book is very general and oriented towards family practice and urgent care.

I then create the form using the primary diagnostic clues as stated in “Saunder’s Manual of Medical Practice”, include the differential diagnoses, “clinical pearls” that help delineate different conditions, and a short list of diagnoses in a drop down box.

Then I go through the process of creating an OpenEMR "form". I think these might be more appropriately referred to as "clinical modules".

I would prefer to incorporate the search engines that you use in your "fee sheet".  I could look up the diagnosis codes and fee codes from inside the "clinical modules".  The billing function could then be initiated from inside of the encounter using the "clinical module" and the fee sheet search tools that you have already developed.

Your addition of the ability to associate a chronic diagnosis with a particular encounter is one of the first steps in this decision making process.

It does require standardization of the diagnoses being used.  I think you should "require" the use of the fee sheet diagnosis search tool.  None of this will work if the business logic can not make a match due to poor spelling or typos.

Say, as an example, I am seeing a 74 year old man with type II diabetes that is out of control.

I look up:

diabetes mellitus : 250.02 (poorly controlled type II DM)

I enter this as a chronic diagnosis.

I start an encounter using this diagnosis.

at the end of an encounter as I "finalize the visit".  I get a pop up box that reminds me:

The following parameters needs to be checked:

*Hemoglobin A1c*  (type II DM) quarterly
*Lipid panel* (Type II DM) anually and quarterly if abnormal
*Liver function* quarterly if on (search the med list for HmgCoA reductase inhibitors, thioglitazone (Avandia, Actos), etc.)
*renal function* (Type II DM) quarterly, warn if the last creatinine is/was 1.4 (men) or more and if 1.3 (women) or more.  Critical warning if the medication list also shows any medication containing metformin.
*retinal exam* due every 6 months
*microalbumin to creatinine ratio* due annually or quarterly if elevated
*PSA* male over 50

One can see how ths will require some work.  Ideally, a laboratory information system will become part of OpenEMR and these searches based on certain lab values will be checked by the "Decision support module" and reported only if data is missing.

In the "bronchitis module" "expert decision models" can be incorporated. These "Expert Decision Models" can arrive at the correct diagnosis with high degrees of certainty.  This certainty level can be expressed as a probability.

This depends on setting up the forms correctly Signs and symptoms can "checked off" with explanatory text boxes.

The "Expert program would run off the presence or absence of the signs and symptoms (simple check boxes will do).

A “help” button to explain to the physician how the decision is being made and why.  (Doctors don’t respond well to being kept in the dark.)

This type of decision making is why I have been setting up the "clinical modules" the way I do.

Sam Bowen, MD

andres_paglayan wrote on Tuesday, December 06, 2005:

For what you are explaining here, it might be better to use a meta encouter form which picks the ‘fields’ to review according to the selected chief complaint.

Instead of forms, you can then set chief complaints and their relationship with the fields to be shown.

With a flexible way to add fields if not defined previously.

A centrally hosted repository, feed from all openemr installs (without pt id) can serve as the knowledge database.

nahoj1976 wrote on Wednesday, December 07, 2005:

Just an international reflexion:
- Prescription modules tend to be very national; I am not fond of telling my patients to go to NY in order to fetch their medicine. They tend to like go to their nearest pharmacy…
Therefore a prescription module - of which an drug-drug interaction would be a part - should ideally be called in a new window. But we still like to have all prescriptionsdata loaded. So then it would be nice to have some kind of tracking or import-feature from the prescription-module that save the data in openEMR (in the same manner as KDEWallet or something?)

2. Decisionsupport. I have allready told you my view about this. If included it should be in a separate chooseable part. What is true in medicine at one clinic is not true in another clinic. Any global standard for treatment doesn’t exist I’m afraid. Including decision support in a system where you still don’t have other things perfectly working like referrals, inclusion model for certifications concerning sickness, healthyness, disease or accident is risky; focus is moved and we never get the important stuff to work…

Regards,

/Johan

drbowen wrote on Wednesday, December 07, 2005:

I would think that the generic names are more stable.

In my internet searches the generic names seem to be very stable though the brand names vary a lot.

This is one of the reasons making the comparisons among generic names becomes important.

As examples do you use:

simvastatin
lovastatin
pravastatin
metformin
metoprolol
carvedilol

?

sankar1234 wrote on Wednesday, December 07, 2005:

My way of thinking for decision support is:  Re-using the decision made by the physicians for other patients.  Is it a flavor of decision support?  In other words, a physicians prescribed X medication of A diagnosis.  The chart is done and signed off.  The next patient comes. The physician again precribing X medication. THe system should prompt the diagnosis list the physician selected.  In this case A.  But it could be more too such as B.  The order of the diagnosis list should be based on frequency of A, B or C diagnosis for the X medication.  In the case the physician selected A, the chart done previously should be copied for the physician.  You see, now the chart is done just by selecting medication and diagnosis.  In other words, the decision support is based on frequency of medication or diagnosis and it is based on the physician style of treating patients.  Initially the intelligent database is empty, but gets accrued as they treat patients.  THis is not my idea.  I believe some commerical vendors do this. But what we can do in OPenEMR is (in a quick and dirty way):  search option that brings medication or diagnosis list, and make the chart available for copying or at least cut and paste.

To me decision support is not helping Doctor to make a choice (we are not medical school),  but helping the doctor to remind what has been done in the past.

www.cvQuest.com

drbowen wrote on Wednesday, December 07, 2005:

Decision support is helping doctors make a decision.

Medicine is extremely complex and no one doctor can know everything about all areas.

Sometimes we come to a fork in the road where in our estimate the chances are equally good (or more likely equally bad) with either the left road or the right road.

An expert system can estimate probability of survival "more precisely" given enough information.  Such a sytem can estimate probability of survival on the left path at 65% and survival on the right path at 85%.

All other conditions equal which would YOU choose. Or which would you rather your doctor choose on your behalf.

These are blind tools.  The physician still has to collect adequate information for the system to work and are heavily dependent on the skill of the physician to collect the right information.

That given:

a 55 year old woman
has pleuritic chest pain (varies with respiration)
the pain is described as sharp
there is chest wall tenderness in the area of the pain
Pressure on the sore area reproduces the same pain.

Research on this type of chest pain revealed a 0% probability that this is a heart attack.

This type of decision can be arrived at with the demographics and 4 positive check boxes.

The answer would be reassuring to both the patient and the physician.

Current research done by the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta (CDC) estimate that overall diagnostic accuracy in the outpatient setting may be only 50%.  This is not a reassuring number.

So if an "expert system" can use the check boxes and arrive at reliable estimates of 65% for the left road versus 85% for the right road, this should help improve medical care.

The whole purpose of the US government pushing electronic health records is that MEDICATION ERRORS are the 5th most common cause of death in the United States.

Drug:Drug interaction checking,
Faxing or e-mailing PRINTED prescriptions (not hand written),
Decision support (to pick the right drug from the outset)

are considered the major tools by which to affect the above stated apalling statistics.

Sam Bowen, MD

andres_paglayan wrote on Wednesday, December 07, 2005:

Whose liability is when they do not concord?

drbowen wrote on Wednesday, December 07, 2005:

It always falls to the party with the deepest pockets.

Such a tool would need lots of disclaimers about not really working.  :wink:

nahoj1976 wrote on Wednesday, December 07, 2005:

Please don’t get upset by my critical view; I am not against more systems for information. Any decision support where you as a doctor can look through and critically consider the information is good. I don’t think that it is any problem to construct a fabulous decission support system. The problem is that we depend on peoples that should enter data and that shall use it…

I’ve been working as GP for 5 years in a small rural community. Together with my wife (also MD, surgeon + GP) did I meet or get in contact with > 75% of the patients that came to the ward. And since it was a rural community more than 85% of all patients from the area came through this ward. We had 2 hours transport time to a hospital so emergency-cases needed stabilization before transport.

In this part of Sweden an EMR-system was introduced about 1990, and all medication was prescribed through it. Since 2001 all prescriptions were sent electronically to the pharmacy. Our ward prescribed 92% of our populations total prescription during repeated follow-ups. In the EMR system we had interaction-support and could easily search for drugnames or generic names.

BUT the major problem you allways had to deal with, was that you never knew what medicine a patient used. The information in the system was nearly allways wrong! A constant struggle it was to finish medications that where classified as chronic, and to add medication that where not on the list. Part of those problems are because of the swedish pharmacy-prescription system. Each packet of a drug gets an id-code (ie paracetamol 500 mg, 20 tablets have one code and paracetamol 500 mg 100 tablets have another) and that code is used when sending drugs electronically to the pharmacy. To make sure to support the marcet of computer-technicians those codes are changed each month…

An interaction-system needs adequate information to work and that means a lot of work around. If I am in doubt I use the systems that are on hand for free from the universities in Sweden.

That is why I wants these systems to be put outside openEMR and connected through a link.

I hope you understand my points.

btw: the issue of patients sick because of bad medication we have in Sweden too. I’m afraid I don’t think a EMR will solve this, nor electronic prescriptions. The major problem is caused by bad prescriptions from us, the doctors, partly because of ignorance partly because of lack of information and partly because of overflow of information making us shut our eyes…

Best regards,

/Johan
Johan Hambraeus, MD

sunsetsystems wrote on Wednesday, December 07, 2005:

Perhaps this can serve as a start for a decision support system:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4506382.stm

:slight_smile:

– Rod
www.sunsetsystems.com

drbowen wrote on Wednesday, December 07, 2005:

"BUT the major problem you allways had to deal with, was that you never knew what medicine a patient used. The information in the system was nearly allways wrong! A constant struggle it was to finish medications that where classified as chronic, and to add medication that where not on the list."

I know your pain.  It seems sometimes that I am the only one that bothers updating our medication lists and it is a constant struggle.

I review the medication lists frequently and am constantly on guard to keep my lists up to date.

You do have access to the university medication lists and they are free of charge?

Can you provide us with one of the lists to incorporate into OpenEMR?

Are there any licensing issues with our incorporating the this list?

If we have the setup routine ask your language preference at the time of installation,  the language preference could be keyed to loading the Swedish drug list. 

Would you be interested in this?

As a separate set of questions to innocuous:

You do have access to the university medication lists and they are free of charge?

Can you provide us with one of the lists to incorporate into OpenEMR?

Are there any licensing issues with our incorporating this list?

Setting up these do not have to be separate modules.  If we have access to the lists unencumbered by licensing or fee issues we could include them as part of the distribution.

Loading the correct medication list could be based on Country and locale preferences.

The drug:drug interaction comparisons work best if comparing generic names anyway.  The business logic in OpenEMR would be fairly generic and match your request.

"btw: the issue of patients sick because of bad medication we have in Sweden too. I’m afraid I don’t think a EMR will solve this, nor electronic prescriptions. The major problem is caused by bad prescriptions from us, the doctors, partly because of ignorance partly because of lack of information and partly because of overflow of information making us shut our eyes… "

This is why Decision Support becomes so important. While Decision Support is not a panacea it can help reduce some of these errors.

Drug:Drug interaction checking is a safe guard against well meaning but uninformed physicians.

Decision Support helps with the lack of information and information overload at the same time.

The whole reason I have invested so much time in OpenEMR is to get to the other side of the mountain where I do have Drug:Drug interaction and Decision Support.

Sam Bowen, MD

innocuous wrote on Thursday, December 08, 2005:

Hi,

You do have access to the university medication lists and they are free of charge?
I have access to a group of doctors as well as medical university who are willing to work on the building the database with generic as well as Indian brand names. No ready list is available, but we can build it and distribute it to OpenEMR free of charge.

Can you provide us with one of the lists to incorporate into OpenEMR?
Yes, if drug interaction and decision support can be built into OpenEMR. Without these two tools, OpenEMR will not be selected for the HMO.

Are there any licensing issues with our incorporating this list?
NOPE

Another requirement that will play a good role in improving healthcare is Patient education. While the GP can do his best to ensure the best treatment that he/she can offer, ultimately its upto the patient to take the medicines and do nothing adverse unknowingly which will effect his/her condition.
Thats where patient education can come into play. By educating the patients, we can improve their awareness and they can further help in improving care. In places like India, where the maximum population are uneducated farmers and rural folk, such a system is very important.
We can have a seperate module look up the internet based on the diagnosis and print a small summary sheet of his/her illness for the patient in local language.

nahoj1976 wrote on Thursday, December 08, 2005:

Hi

The Swedish list is only distributed on the web in a searchable form. Could be found (in Swedish) on http://www.fass.se/LIF/home/index.jsp?UserTypeId=0#

This will open a picture saying "Your search was undefined". On the lefthand side you have a couple of fill-in forms, one for interaction and radiobuttons searching for "Läkemedel" ie drug name and "Substans" ie the substance. The database is continously updated from all reported cases and new international publications.

No charge, no controle who uses it. But on the other hand no way that I know to access it to include in openEMR and only Swedish…

I checked if it was accessible through lynx but I am afraid one needs opera or Internetexplorer as browser for these pages…

Best regards,

/Johan 

innocuous wrote on Monday, December 12, 2005:

Hi all,
Any ideas or views of how we can get drug interaction and decision support be a part of OpenEMR?
It seems everyone agrees that it will be invaluable tools to the system, but is something going to be done about it in the next release?
Thanks

sankar1234 wrote on Tuesday, December 13, 2005:

Innocuous :

I am not sure about others.  But I believe the two features you have mentioned requires substantial amount of work.  OpenEmR being developed by volunteers, it is difficult to set a timetable to get this done.  But if there funding, I am sure one of the volunteers would consider implementing it.

-Sankar
www.cvQuest.com

angela_smith wrote on Sunday, July 15, 2007:

Hi
Both drug-drug interactions and clinical decision support are features we are looking for in a EHR to implement across the primary health care clinics in South Africa. Here we have an ‘essential drugs list’ which includes all the drugs that the government requires. We also have a ‘Monthly Index of Medical Specialities’, which is published um, monthly, with drug updates. I’m not sure if it would be possible to buy the copyright on it or something.

With regards to clinical decision making, I know there has been a lot of debate on the idea, but here in South Africa in the public health sector (where the government pays for most medical expenses), we must follow certain treatment guidelines e.g. for HT, DM, TB, HIV, CaCx etc, and it would be useful to have these appear when you log a specific diagnosis.

Also, we are based at a university, therefore many ‘doctors’ using the system are in medical school. We would like to use the clinical decision support module as part of clinical training…

What I would like to know is: What kind of figure are we looking at to fund the development of these modules on openEMR?

Angela

sunsetsystems wrote on Sunday, July 15, 2007:

Angela, I’ll try to help you figure this out if you can get me some detailed information about the SA treatment guidelines (i.e., where can they be obtained and are they free?), and similarly with the drug interaction database that you want to use.

Rod
www.sunsetsystems.com
rod at sunsetsystems dot com

markleeds wrote on Monday, July 16, 2007:

To some extent, the CAMOS form can handle this sort of thing.

You can organize text fragments by category and subcategory and retrieve them quickly.

For example, I have a category named ‘prescriptions’ and one named ‘exam’.  subcategories under prescriptions are different types of drugs and within each subcategory, the drugs themselves.  Under ‘exam’ I have different kinds of medical problems and then sample progress notes for each.  I also have a category named referrals with subcategories for specialties and diagnostic facilities so I can store their addresses, phone numbers, and insurance information.

Along with the text information that will be submitted from the form, you can also store information as comments which will not be submitted.  Drug interaction data could be stored in this manner.

Also, embedded functions are available which allows the insertion of billing table data and insertion of other CAMOS entries.  This allows complex collections of information in a single entry.  For example, I can have a CAMOS entry for UTI which has a typical progress note, prescriptions and the appropriate cpt and icd9 codes.  All will be submitted separately with a single submission in the database in the appropriate place.

Using this method of organization is also ideal for studying your data later.

There are some limitations at this point.  Individual users cannot have entries which only they see.  Also, anyone can alter or delete an entry.  These and other problems could be fixed and other improvements made if there was any interest.

The version I am running has some improvements over what is in cvs.  I have been slow to submit changes due to the fact that I now only have internet access on one computer and it is not set up for testing OpenEMR code.

I don’t know if this solution remotely resembles what you had in mind, but it has greatly increased my efficiency because I don’t have to look up information twice and I can locate it quickly when I need it.

I am now working on making CAMOS so it can run independently of a patient encounter so that information can be inserted and accessed without going into an encounter.

joelgingery wrote on Wednesday, March 04, 2009:

It seems at this point there only commercial drug/drug/herbal/food/disease interaction solutions available:  Cerner (Lexi-Comp), Micromedex, Facts, etc. Some of these are available for free on various web sites for consumers to use.  Since maintaining a reliable data base is very labor intensive and therefore prohibatively expensive I’m wondering if it might be possible to a)enlist a school of pharmacy to develop and maintain the data base or b)ask the commercial providers if they would consider letting the openemr project, considering its non-profit status and since the information is already available for free on the internet anyway,  use their product for free or at low rates. Given openemr’s worthy mission it might be possible to enlist one or more of the major drug companies (Lilly, Pfizer, etc.) to underwright any modest expenses for either option.