Openemr development contribution

anonymous wrote on Sunday, September 23, 2007:

I run a 15 people development company in mumbai,india that focuses on the LAMP platform.
Recently started medical billing (Around 1.5 yrs ago) using existing systems.

Did’nt particularly like the EMR at client’s site so looking at various open source options and decided to stick to oemr.org.  I have one developer with 2 yrs PHP/MySQL/Ajax experience who will be devoted full time to this project as I have 3 potential clients for it.

I guess it should take atleast a couple of weeks for us to get a handle on this, but after that let me know if there is any particular feature you’d like to assign to my developer.

If I start with a download today, what is the realistic time frame I am looking at for just implementing and transitioning the data from existing EMR and training existing staff?

sunsetsystems wrote on Sunday, September 23, 2007:

Hi Abhi, welcome to OpenEMR!

I recommend that your developer start with Documentation/SystemArchitecture.odt (in the OpenEMR distribution) which has good information for someone wanting a technical introduction.  This is an OpenOffice document.

Converting from another EHR can be either straightforward or very difficult, depending on what you are starting with, how well it is documented, and what your expectations are.  Regardless, your developer will first need a very good understanding of the OpenEMR database, and perhaps also of SQL-Ledger if A/R is to be converted.

Please make sure your developer uses this forum to communicate with the other developers regarding proposed projects.  Obviously we want to be sure that new designs and contributed code are in harmony with the project’s goals and standards, and with other development efforts.

We strive to be the "most open" of open source medical practice systems.  Accordingly, we welcome your efforts and very much look forward to working with you.

Rod
www.sunsetsystems.com

okhra wrote on Thursday, October 11, 2007:

Welcome to OpenEMR.
Could you get back to me off-line ?
I’ll be in Madras (Chennai) sometime in Feb, 2008 and we have been using openemr in a pediatric practice for about 2 years in Vermont, USA.
braman@world.std.com

anonymous wrote on Tuesday, November 13, 2007:

I didnt start when I said I would. But we have started looking at the project now with 1 person working on it full time.

Now I downloaded the existing stable version and also read the documentation.

Compared this to the existing EMR system used by my client (VB/mssql server).

As my first priority is to seamlessly transition the client from existing system to the open EMR system, I was comparing the two.

I found 1 major area where OEMR was lacking. Our current EMR is very comprehensive when it comes to capturing encounter information. Almost every option has several dropdowns to select from and the entire encounter is captured as a number of "clicks". Which would potentially make the storage and subsequent report running, very objective and easy.

Not to mention, that fee flips/superbills as well as predetermination eligibility could be directly or programmatically deduced if we capture information in the manner which they do.

It this is not clear, the best way would be for me to send you screen shots of what I am talking about.  How do I go about doing that?

Second Issue/Suggestion:
Are we utilizing an MVC architecture? Has anyone considered using Ruby On Rails?

Third:
BAsed on the "clicks" recorded by the provider, the current application generates reports which are template driven. I.e. there are set templates with a sort of fill in the blanks which ends up looking like a dictated report.  Is there any similar effort going on?

thanks

anonymous wrote on Tuesday, November 13, 2007:

ok, so i looked at the users section and it seems that I wasnt the first one to think of a template driven system.

So to summarize, I would think that the approach would be (and correct me if I am wrong)

There will be several forms (or templates)
Each form would have multiple fields and some fields may be present across many forms (procedures, office visits etc)

Each Field would have several options. And provider would be able to select one or many options from them.
This would be a 1:M relationship correct?

These options would be predefined for the most part depending on the doctor’s speciality and the practice and needs. If some added annotation is needed, then there can be space provided for that, but essentially it would be tied to a form field.

once the list of options have been selected, these would be stored in a table along with the form_id, PID, date_of_service, field_id

question is:
Are you thinking along similar lines and if yes, then to what extent is the development work done in this?
Would you like my person to take a different approach?

sunsetsystems wrote on Thursday, November 15, 2007:

This sounds quite a bit like the current system of encounter forms – or maybe not?  Some mockups would help in understanding what you mean.

Have you seen the "wish list" at http://www.sunsetsystems.com/node/21 ?  If not, check the first item there, "Customizable Clinical Templates".  These are just some thoughts that have been offered in the past.  Whatever you do, I encourage you to keep everyone posted here as you go along, as input from the docs especially will surely be very important.

Thanks!

Rod
www.sunsetsystems.com

anonymous wrote on Thursday, November 15, 2007:

hi.
yes i am taking a look at the various documents but at the same time, due to urgency at my end, we are quite focused on integrating our existing system with openEMR.

now here is something i wanted to ask you folks.

Over the past 1.5 yrs we have been developing our own application which mainly does error corrections for claims before they are submitted, precert tracking and follows ups/AR tracking. over the months it has become quite comprehensive.

now the problem is, if we integrate a lot of our code with the existing system and check it in, wouldnt it break things for most people? we are trying as far as possible to stick to oemr structures but in some cases we have no option but to add our fields.

e.g. oemr does not have fields for coinsurance or deductible. while we track that too.

we are not extremely familiar with a collaborative cross country development environment so while i would be continuously posting stuff here and doing by development in parallel (ofcourse with inputs from all of you), i am not sure how to "check it all in". and who will do the validation and so on.

Another thing, at this point i have 2 people working on it full time, so the feedback and feature cycle needs to be really quick to allow me to optimally utilize my staff. by mid dec i will move to 1 staff dedicated to oemr.

Let me get a hold of the screen shots that i need, and hopefully that will make things clearer.

drbowen wrote on Saturday, November 17, 2007:

There are two basic varieties of electronic health records.

1) Lots of drop down fields with lots of clicking.  This is a template driven, minimal typing model that is useful for non-typists. Pros - easier for non-typists.  Cons - Templates are frequently restrictive and does not allow for the huge variation in data that exits in the medical encounters we are trying to capture.  Encounters appear repetitive, monotonous more mechanical.  This detracts from the richness of detail that is sometimes necessary to accurately capture the encounter.  Not that this is true of the entire world, in the United States, this makes life easier for the attorneys that we always seem to be defending ourselves from primarily because the physician appears to be less interested and less caring.

2) Mostly text fields that require a lot of typing.  Pros - very flexible in capturing all data.  Cons - not good for non-typists, difficult to easily summarize and report using mechanical filters: “storage and subsequent report running, very objective and easy” doesn’t apply here.

OpenEMR is really more the latter at this time.  That is not to say that a template driven system should not be introduced.  In fact this has been much discussed over the years and would be a welcome addition.  But it is important to recognize the differences between the two ways of doing things.

"""Over the past 1.5 yrs we have been developing our own application which mainly does error corrections for claims before they are submitted, precert tracking and follows ups/AR tracking. over the months it has become quite comprehensive."""

This type of error checking, precert tracking and AR tracking would be most welcome.  Rod Roark is a most excellent resource on the integration issues.  We appreciate your sensitivity on this issue.

Sam Bowen, MD

sunsetsystems wrote on Saturday, November 17, 2007:

Abhi, if you pass your initial changes to me I’ll look them over and check them in for you as appropriate.  After a couple of rounds of that, we’ll reach a comfort level where you can be set up with direct access to CVS.

Also I can offer suggestions to help you integrate your existing software with OpenEMR.  For what it’s worth the insurance_data table does have a field for the copay amount, but not for a deductible; that and other items could be easily added.  I take it you are willing to make your stuff available per the GPL?  It does sound like a fine addition to OpenEMR, and we are all very appreciative of your collaboration with us.

Best,

Rod
www.sunsetsystems.com

anonymous wrote on Sunday, November 18, 2007:

yes ofcourse, the idea is to contribute to openEMR and make my stuff integrated with that too to make one super system.

Dr. Bowen, thats an interested perspective. Almost a 180 degrees line of thought as far as the encounter capturing is concerned.

So here is my initial take on why we need it template driven.

Eventual goal is to generate Fee Slips or Super Bills from the Options selected in the template itself. This will make for precise encounter form highly consistent with the medical records.

As far as sounding caring and 1-on-1 with the patient… these so called clicks are converted into a prose form using multiple set templates. Soemthing like a "fill in the blanks". This is what is submitted to the Ins companies etc with medical notes are requested by them.

Also: To address the issue of the disadvantage of capturing data
I am working with a specialty right now. In general, the physician works with a limited set of diagnosis and treatments. Say 90% of the ailments are common and oft repeated. It is that remaining 10% which may need special handling. And for that we will always have text fields which will subsequently becoming part of templates/dropdowns. It would be like a self learning tool. That is why i leaned towards the template way.

Also, to explain a bit about the error checking system, currently this is all hardcoded and whenever we come across a rule we just add it to the system. (this is billing related though)
For e.g.
Modifier Check: The code looks for globals by checking for encounters within the last 10/90 days and alerts us to add that in case we have missed.
Missing RPH: If referring physician is missing, it alerts the data entry operator.
Using the Appropriate modifier: such as when to use 50/51/59… All that is hardcoded based oh phy feedback … and so on. We have dozens of such rules which reduce claim errors before hand.
The goal would be to make this a user driven system where the user himself can add rules or create rules on the fly and based on their requirements.

Precert Tracking:Heres the flow till now as we have been using it.
Someone enters into an online form. what they require precert for. Patient/procedure/diagnosis.
This goes into a list to be used by the precert person sorted by date requested.
Color coded for various types so the appropriate person handling can easily view his list./

When clicked, a form with various fields come up including phone number of insurance company, patient details, request details so the precert guy just have to make the call… follow the instructions, determine whether its a no precert required or predet required or whatever and fill in the form. and store it. Once OKed, someone moves it over to the "done list" and sets the appointment.

For tricare, a tricare look alike form is automatically generated in pdf which can be directly faxed.

The reason i was pushing for a template driven objective clickable emr is so we can determine eligibility or medical necessity based on the past data captured (case in point: Anthem medical necessity determination for radio frequency).

markleeds wrote on Wednesday, November 21, 2007:

Regarding tempates, my form CAMOS, which I use every day for every single encounter to record SOAP notes, prescriptions, orders, is sort of the best of both worlds.  You can click your way through quickly to find the text template you want and submit it as-is or edit it by typing.  There are also a few other very useful features.

I kind of messed it up recently.  I was trying to make it so multiple items could be collected in the form and submitted at once.  I came up with this idea of a ‘multibox’ which after using it for a few weeks, I have found that it is a stupid idea because it is not as intuitive and it doesn’t work all that well.  Also, I discovered ajax and incorporated it into the latest version which kind of does away for the need for the multibox because you can sit in the form and submit as many entries as you want asynchronously in the background.

I will remove the mutlibox feature and clean up otherwise.  Also, a recent prospective user attempted to use the form and uncovered several bugs relating to the fact that a set of javascript variable string assignments are written by PHP code and can easily be broken if characters that break the quoting are let through without proper escaping.  I have fixed most of them, but there may be at least one left.

I am currently caught up in studying javascript and particularly the jquery library, but I would be happy to work with anyone interested in using CAMOS to fix bugs and features.  Or even better, if someone wants to work on developing it or developing something similar but better.  We can even give it a different name :slight_smile:

anonymous wrote on Thursday, November 22, 2007:

Hi Mark,
We would be happy to take a look and incorporate and improve on that rather than reinvent the circle.

You can either post the details here or write to me directly on my userid @ yahoo.com

thanks
abhi

bradymiller wrote on Sunday, November 25, 2007:

hey Mark,
  This is a bit of an unrelated question, but what frameworks(if using any) for AJAX are you using. I’m thinking about adding Access Control(php-GACL) administration to OpenEMR, and was thinking about doing it with some AJAX. Figured it’d be a good excuse to learn AJAX. If were gonna start incorporating AJAX code, figured we should use the same basic set of javascript functions(or a frameworks). Been looking thru frameworks, and xajax looks good. Anybody else got any input here?
-brady

markleeds wrote on Sunday, November 25, 2007:

Brady,

I’m glad you asked :slight_smile:

I didn’t use a framework for the AJAX code I committed recently.

I like JQuery.  It is well designed and makes difficult tasks easy.  There are some great plugins that are easy to use and it works well with other frameworks/libraries.

There is a 20k and a 14k compressed version of JQuery.  The uncompressed version is 70-80k.  It is small, fast and powerful.

It is used by a few big companies, including Google.

If you look at new.php under /openemr/interface/forms/CAMOS to see the changes to make AJAX work, all of those lines can be replaced by a single JQuery statement.

thorntree wrote on Wednesday, November 28, 2007:

Rod,
Have emailed the precertifiation tracking module to you so you can add it to the code.

sunsetsystems wrote on Wednesday, November 28, 2007:

Thanks!  I replied with some feedback for you, and am optimistic that with a bit more work we can get it into 2.8.4.

Rod
www.sunsetsystems.com

dear Rod,
where can I find Documentation/SystemArchitecture.odt (in the OpenEMR distribution)? I would like to read it since I would like to share some of my times to contribute to openEMR, so I can learn a little bit more in customizing. I have a background programming in VB, java, perl, basic and databases (MS SQL, mysql, mariaDB, oracle) since my 6th grade of elementary school, but I am not familiar with medical terms.

Right now, I would like to customize and add some forms to accommodate in an infirmary in my organization.
I would like to add some forms for mental health, maternal health, dental, etc.

I am looking forward to a favorable reply from you. Thank you.

dear Rod,
my organization is a non profit organization that provides proper education and health for poor and abandoned children in Cambodia.

hi @ebudiahr, welcome and thanks for sharing your background, please see this https://www.open-emr.org/wiki/index.php/New_Developer_Information, hope it helps you